Drunk and Ugly Forums
The Drunk and the Ugly => Show Discussion => Topic started by: Capman on June 01, 2016, 08:15:49 PM
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This is a thread for general show criticism.
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felt like it needed something here, so ups and downs on the latest stuff.
been loving 7th Sea. the whole thing's interesting to learn about as a world and a system, and while it hasn't been over the top action or humor, there's a very interesting pace to it all. things are going on that make it feel bigger than the party, but never quite overwhelming to them. everyone's felt consistently intriguing. while I'd be posting about "what's a servo skull?" or "What's Tac-Net?" in other lore-heavy games, I feel comfortable sitting back and gradually learning "What is a fate witch?" and "How is fake-fantasy England different than real England?" and "Why is Deckland cursed to obey leadership?" Things keep leaking in gradually in a way that feels really compelling with a self-aware theatrical nature
Monster Hearts just felt like it wasn't for me, but in a strictly personal chemistry thing since I know there's people digging it. I read over the system when Max offered it as a tool, but shrugged it off for encouraging stereotypes that I just didn't care for. if I wanted a Powered By Apocalypse with monsters and cults, I'd go Monster of the Week. if I wanted super powered kids, I'd go Monsters & Other Childish Things. I prefer my drama with extra cheese and my monsters powers loose and bizarre
also been liking the Let's Plays, but I took some special enjoyment in the Final Fantasy 5 run. a real marathon of 4 hours, but had some fun trivia and conversations that come up
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7th Sea is very much all about having a huge framework of a world for the GM to play with, so that sense of discovery is absolutely at the core of the system - made better yet by he fact that John Wick's attitude to going off-script or using house rules is 'sure, so long as it's fun'. The games I've played have always capitalized on the theatrical nature of the world and story, so you always seem to be learning stuff about people and the world at a dramatically appropriate point.
Monster Hearts has always been a bit polarizing. I...kinda like it. I'm not too sold, as you said, on the fact that the character skins all push players to be abusive, selfish dickweeds, but I've found that it's when players push against the framework and try to move out of that zone that the game starts to light up. I suppose that may have been the original point - to make being a 'good' character very tricky when all the benefits of your skin tend to revolve around being a bastard. I think that above all else, Monster Hearts needs good players as well as a good MC to keep things from getting to morbid and self-destructive.
Now, Dungeon World...I've had bad, bad experiences with that bloody system.
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My major criticism at the moment is Kevin not returning my calls. We had a lovely evening together last week, and though I've tried to reach out to him since then--every hour on the hour, of course--he hasn't returned a single call.
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My major criticism at the moment is Kevin not returning my calls. We had a lovely evening together last week, and though I've tried to reach out to him since then--every hour on the hour, of course--he hasn't returned a single call.
I'm sorry. I have to come clean. It's the cyborg thing. I just can't handle it. Not after last time. You're a lovely person, though.
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You said it wouldn't be a problem! You promised!
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I've got to mention it here, and this is by no means a swipe at Max, but I'm about an hour into Ep 5 of Camp Rosewater and I have to say that Penelope has been nothing but an annoyance throughout this entire campaign. I totally get that her concept is this disaffected observer who doesn't really trust anyone, but until her quick talk with Maria and Simus (where I'm at right now) her total input into the game has been fucking people up for no apparent reason, then running away when people try to get an answer out of her.
This is still a fun game to listen to, but eh, I guess I just find it a bit frustrating. All the other characters have their motivations and act on them, but Penelope's just like the M80's she keeps hurling about. Loud, distracting and without any real explanation.
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Honestly, Camp Rosewater was the first long Monster Hearts game that the group did. A lot of the hiccups in it are the result of players being in uncharted territory with the game system. Also, in regards to Max and myself in those games, we were using two of the worst skins from the Skins for the Skinless pack--which says a lot, because all but like one skin from that pack is garbage. If I remember correctly, Axe actually disallowed use of SftS in all future campaigns after Rosewater.
But seriously man, the one skin that Max was using . . . Ugh, it was rough to watch. Almost every time he tried to have a meaningful interaction with someone or something, it required rolling to be visible. If you fail the roll, you become a violent asshole. The result of playing the Unseen (I think that's what it's called) is that your character is a violent asshole more than half the time. Max tried his best to be all about love and friendship, bless his magical girl heart, but random chance just never let Penny have any chill, ever.
The skin I was using, the Gargoyle (I think that's what it was called?), was terrible in that it offered no direction for the character to take. It was like the Calaca (that I wished was better; who doesn't want to date a skeleton?) in that there was no internal conflict present in any aspect of the skin. Every skin from the base game and Second Skins has several kinds of internal conflicts to inform the directions you can take your characters, but the Gargoyle and Calaca skins just kind of give you superpowers with no emotional drawbacks and expect you to go somewhere with it.
Look at me, not even part of the cast anymore, still speaking to the credit of my erstwhile colleagues. I'll take my payment in unmarked bills, Matthew. Thanks.
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I had a feeling it was the skin itself that was causing problem, as I've listened to Max in the Harvester game and he was great, as was he in my Snuffed playtest where he managed to be a horrifyingly manipulative app on someone's phone. I think the issue with Monster Hearts is that some of the skins focus too much on a cool concept without figuring out how well they'll play with an actual narrative or the other players.
That, in turn, I think is down to the way MH kind of forces a set of social guidelines on the players - you're shitty teenagers, probably American, indulging in spooky drama and sexy times.
I'd still love to see the DnU guys give Apocalyose World a try if only because the flexibility of it allows for every skin to be viable, even the mad ones (like The Man In A Box or the Behemoth or the Space Marine Mammal) because there's way more scope to just let it all hang out. So to speak.
No money. Only pride. Redeemable nowhere.
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I think the issue with Monster Hearts is that some of the skins focus too much on a cool concept without figuring out how well they'll play with an actual narrative or the other players.
Some of the base skins have shades of this issue (Ghost and Ghoul Darkest Selves are the big ones that come to mind), but Skins for the Skinless, as Nate mentioned, appear to have been made in an "oh man, this sounds so cool" vacuum where nothing was ever play-tested in a group, and as he mentioned, I tend to steer people away from all but the Minotaur. And honestly the Minotaur only fulfills a very specific niche that happens to have been a desirable character archetype among the groups I've run MH for. Most of the time you're better off playing a Werewolf if you wanna play a swoleman/lady, unless you very specifically want your arc to be about people only giving a shit about you because of that strength.
I'd still love to see the DnU guys give Apocalyose World a try if only because the flexibility of it allows for every skin to be viable, even the mad ones (like The Man In A Box or the Behemoth or the Space Marine Mammal) because there's way more scope to just let it all hang out. So to speak.
I ran a one-shot of it a while back that turned out okay, but it wasn't planned to be recorded. Second Edition recently released the "final" preview for us backers, so I might pick it up again at some point. I'd been avoiding it while 2E was in production.
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I think the issue with Monster Hearts is that some of the skins focus too much on a cool concept without figuring out how well they'll play with an actual narrative or the other players.
That is, for the most part, the fault of poorly done custom skins (such as the Skins for the Skinless pack). Stuff from the core rulebook and Second Skins are all pretty well playtested and designed. My major complaint about them is their lack of replayability. After the second go with a skin, you'll be rehashing the same character over and over again.
That, in turn, I think is down to the way MH kind of forces a set of social guidelines on the players - you're shitty teenagers, probably American, indulging in spooky drama and sexy times.
To be fair, that is all Monster Hearts is. It's hyper-focused on that one thing, and it doesn't do anything other than that. In my experience, that is how most PbtA games are; they do one particular thing better than any other game, but they cannot sustain themselves on anything else.
I ran a one-shot of it a while back that turned out okay, but it wasn't planned to be recorded. Second Edition recently released the "final" preview for us backers, so I might pick it up again at some point. I'd been avoiding it while 2E was in production.
Oh, speaking of both things in crowdfunding and things not to be recorded: do you plan on picking up that PbtA young superhero game again anytime in the nearish future? I've got the itch to game again, and I recall that game being super rad.
Aw man, that sucks. I've got overcompensating ego and false bravado to spare!
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Oh, speaking of both things in crowdfunding and things not to be recorded: do you plan on picking up that PbtA young superhero game again anytime in the nearish future? I've got the itch to game again, and I recall that game being super rad.
If you are talking about Masks I would be really interested in seeing you guys play it, I am super hyped about that game.
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Yes! Masks! Though if I (and/or Manda and/or Zach) were in it, it wouldn't be something recorded for the podcast. If I recall correctly, the cast in the first episode Axe ran was Manda, Zach, Josh, Travis, and myself; if he picks that up again (and I hope he does), I don't expect it to be posted.
That said, I'm sure the DnU cast will play and post it eventually!
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My next local campaign should be Masks, so I'm pretty damned hyped myself.
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that Penelope has been nothing but an annoyance throughout this entire campaign.
You... Aren't wrong at that point. Even after that she's a touch whinier than I would like, but I'm following through on a character concept promised by the initial skin. Which in retrospect as discussed here is garbage. I probably should've tried harder and done more... I don't know, something? But yeah, as much as I love the concept of someone with those troubles, it doesn't play well in the interaction based game world. The entire move set encourages spite and passivity (literally with the moves being designed around these things), and in general I realized later is essentially an antagonistic NPC design territory; Rage and moderate presence.
She gets... More party inclusive, but when that happens it's accompanied by me trying to play a character who's been through that straight, how clingy and lacking confident that entails, so I continually had concerns about her being annoying in a separate way I suppose.
I love shitty teenage drama, I really do (as illustrated in other games) but I feel that where this really collapsed for me was essentially moving in a different circle from everyone else. Hindsight and all that. However, those are explanations, no excuses. I probably could've played her better, it just was a bit rough. I just wish there was anything to be learned out of the experience to better the future, but alas I mostly got "don't touch Skins for the Skinless despite it looking cool".
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ohgodifeelsobadforsayingallthis
Being totally fair to you, looking at these skins, they suffer from being really, really goddamn specific. Stuff like the Creature limits you to water...but what if you want to be a bug-person, who changes via a cocoon? It feels like most of those skins could do with some re-interpretation to open them up more. Having an invisible skin is a neat idea, but locking away all interaction behind a dice roll is just bad design.
Edit: Ah, there's also the option of just being invisible...but that also raises a bunch of goddamn problems. Bah.
youreacooldudemaxreally
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ohgodifeelsobadforsayingallthis
Being totally fair to you, looking at these skins, they suffer from being really, really goddamn specific. Stuff like the Creature limits you to water...but what if you want to be a bug-person, who changes via a cocoon? It feels like most of those skins could do with some re-interpretation to open them up more. Having an invisible skin is a neat idea, but locking away all interaction behind a dice roll is just bad design.
Edit: Ah, there's also the option of just being invisible...but that also raises a bunch of goddamn problems. Bah.
youreacooldudemaxreally
Hahahaha it's okay. I wasn't offended. I appreciate criticisms, I just am not sure how to... Utilize this one was all? I did my best to play her where she was going after interactions started playing out, but it doesn't fix the underlying issue. I hope people can just use this game as a reason to not use SftS skins, which is something to get out of it.
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I just wish there was anything to be learned out of the experience to better the future, but alas I mostly got "don't touch Skins for the Skinless despite it looking cool".
Unfortunately, that's pretty much it. You're a good roleplayer and you roleplayed that skin as it was designed, it just so happens that the skin itself is awful.
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Hahahaha it's okay. I wasn't offended. I appreciate criticisms, I just am not sure how to... Utilize this one was all?
Yeah. I think I was just inarticulately rambling without a purpose in mind, I just wanted to vent. Yer a good dude.
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Okay. All sins have been forgiven for that goddamn 'thing' innuendo.
I love you guys.
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Yes! Masks! Though if I (and/or Manda and/or Zach) were in it, it wouldn't be something recorded for the podcast. If I recall correctly, the cast in the first episode Axe ran was Manda, Zach, Josh, Travis, and myself; if he picks that up again (and I hope he does), I don't expect it to be posted.
That said, I'm sure the DnU cast will play and post it eventually!
For those curious about Masks the PDF just came out you can find it here: http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/193258/Masks-A-New-Generation
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Oh man, it's finally released?!
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Yes new today, if I had more time/players I would be running it now.
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Mother of God.
If I weren't at work right now, I'd be spamming all of my friends and erstwhile colleagues' Skypes with a link to the file and the message, "SO WHY AREN'T WE PLAYING THIS RIGHT NOW?"
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I did get myself a copy of it as well. I did not have much money but I chipped in for a pdf copy during the kickstarter.
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so I don't recall it coming up apart from the Lance-O's brain special, but have the Drunk and Ugly ever considered any of the Powered By Apocalypse stuff? the open-endedness of basically everything in the games sounds like something up the gang's alley
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There are a few games being designed and slotted into the schedule. Monster Hearts and Apocalypse World specifically. Dungeon World has been thrown around as well. Do you have any suggestions for systems in the PBTA system?
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I'd be interested to hear DnU run Monster of the Week or Spirit of 77.
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Agreed, I could see Monster of the Week as well. an actual long-term game of that would be cool
I had some giant list of PBTA systems somewhere I can't dig up anymore, but the fucked up amount of in Fellowship could be neat. Not really for me, but I hear good things about that World Wide Wrestling
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Agreed, I could see Monster of the Week as well. an actual long-term game of that would be cool
I had some giant list of PBTA systems somewhere I can't dig up anymore, but the fucked up amount of in Fellowship could be neat. Not really for me, but I hear good things about that World Wide Wrestling
Apocalypse World and Dungeon World also fun in the right hands. and there was that one I found that was an official RPG of Kill 6 Billion Demons, called Broken World
and take or leave it, did Base Raiders or Red Markets ever get any longterm play that we haven't seen yet?
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well I just discovered Mythenders, the game about killing gods and legends while trying to not become one yourself. it's free, and describes itself as variously "heavy metal," "emo," and "anime" depending how you want to play it. I'd love to see what some of the Druglies would make out of it
http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/110779/Mythender-Roleplaying-Game&affiliate_id=104153
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Oh sweet it's free. I'll have to check it out.